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Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

donc — Tue, 12 May 2009 05:14:00 GMT

tclaremont:

Don't get too hung up on the Alexa rankings. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the Alexa stats can only take into consideration the internet sites, and has no knowledge of intranet sites set up behind firewalls.

I would venture a guess that there is a very large contingent of CMS applications deployed internally, and we can only guess what platforms they consist of.

Sharepoint is huge within intranets. I won't say if it is good or bad, because a CMS, almost by definition, is only as good as the userbase. If your userbase won't embrace it, the platform is irrelevant. If your userbase is a bunch of techies, they will likely cling to it more readily than some other groups.

And, based on experience, you can't force it upon them. They wont go there if there is a dearth of content, and the content won't be there without contributions from users. It is a chicken and egg game. The usual, inevitable approach is to understand that "Content Is King". If you make the CMS the ultimate place to gather information, that will be your draw. Forgot lots of fancy features. Forgot pretty colors. Forget what language it is written in.

Again, the hardest part about working with computers... ain't the computers.

This was all so good it was worth repeating. Well said Tim.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

tclaremont — Fri, 08 May 2009 13:00:17 GMT

Don't get too hung up on the Alexa rankings. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the Alexa stats can only take into consideration the internet sites, and has no knowlege of intranet sites set up behind firewalls.

I would venture a guess that there is a very large contingent of CMS applications deployed internally, and we can only guess what platforms they consist of.

Sharepoint is huge within intranets. I won't say if it is good or bad, because a CMS, almost by definition, is only as good as the userbase. If your userbase won't embrace it, the platform is irrelevent. If your userbase is a bunch of techies, they will likely cling to it more readilly than some other groups.

And, based on experience, you can't force it upon them. They wont go there if there is a dearth of content, and the content won't be there without contributions from users. It is a chicken and egg game. The usual, inevitable approach is to understand that "Content Is King". If you make the CMS the ultimate place to gather information, that will be your draw. Forgot lots of fancy features. Forgot pretty colors. Forget what language it is written in.

Again, the hardest part about working with computers... ain't the computers.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

djanke — Fri, 08 May 2009 01:55:59 GMT

to add to Don's comment...

I get the impression that a lot of larger organizations just roll their own CMS. It's not really that hard with .Net's master pages (templating), controls (modules), and tight integration with Windows authentication (user management).

I give .Net as an example, because that's where most of my experience is, but I think Java is used more in enterprise-level development.

I think the open source PHP projects are more prone to have strong communities grow up around them. PHP really lives on the web (vs. Microsoft living in the office). A good user/developer community can make a huge difference.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

djanke — Fri, 08 May 2009 01:42:26 GMT

All you had to do was ask ;-)

I found a ranking of CMS platforms based on their Alexa traffic ratings (and the accompanying article)... shows which CMSs are visited the most.

It actually seems like a pretty good metric. The ones that are more popular are used more often, so they get a lot of visits. The ones that scale well are used on larger sites, so they get a lot of visits. The ones that are easiest for visitors to use encourage visitors to return, so they get a lot of visits. etc., etc.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

donc — Fri, 08 May 2009 01:14:14 GMT

Christian_SEO:
And while I have no numbers to back it up, I find it hard to believe that installations and users of PHP-based CMS applications don't vastly outnumber all of the ones in Windows.

Probably more a matter of interpretation Chris ... if we define CMS as being limited to systems designed to allow people to upload content to a web site (the web-centric definition adopted by a few OSS developers), then PHP is undoubtedly a popular choice - probably not as wide-spread as Sharepoint in the business world (remember PHP is just a scripting language; not a full-blown development language), although any stats on usage would be interesting to read... It's when we define a CMS as the wider-embracing "systems for organizing and managing collaborative content" (the more generic meaning), that we find PHP scripting is not as widely used. I'm actually not aware of any enterprise-level CMS where the GUI is linked to the back-end by PHP, although such may exist - PHP is more commonly used for the small to medium CMS packages such as Drupal or Mambo - not really enterprise, but sometimes ideal for small to medium CMS applications - which of course can also make them ideal for many small to medium NPO projects!

It's also worth noting that nowadays PHP is installed by the Windows web platform installer, so usage is definitely on the increase - I read a nice little quote on this from a MS TAM - "ASP.NET is popular among enterprise developers, but Web 2.0 startups and homebrew sites are often built atop PHP" ... seems collaboration is happening everywhere nowadays!

PS - This is becoming a very informative thread - the consensus of which seems to be... it's really a management issue. This is obviously a large project for those involved, but it's not "large" in the context of the technologies under discussion - any of the proposed scripting languages would easily handle this project, as would any of the discussed operating platforms. These are choices that really come down to parochialisms and supportability's - The real question is... Is the org able to manage this project to completion? (irrespective of the technologies deployed?)

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

Christian_SEO — Thu, 07 May 2009 21:00:59 GMT

I agree, if you already have SharePoint, then it makes sense that you would see what you need to make that work. I suspect you are going to have the same issues no matter what other CMS (Generic: Content Management System) you consider.

And while I have no numbers to back it up, I find it hard to believe that installations and users of PHP-based CMS applications don't vastly outnumber all of the ones in Windows. It would be interesting to see statistics if anyone finds some...

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

djanke — Thu, 07 May 2009 19:38:07 GMT

Don't forget to consider any services provided by the company. They might provide things like support, installation, customization, template design, or training. It can make a big help when you're a small, over-worked team.

For example, we recently moved our external website to a hosted solution. It's not the greatest platform, but it does what we need it to. Plus, it's a big relief not having to worry about the website. I still answer some questions, but it's mostly HTML/JavaScript stuff... as opposed to chasing bugs or whatever.

Honestly, I don't think you'll have any major problems with ASP, but--all else being equal--you'd do better with something more modern (especially when you think about having to maintain everything 3-5 years from now).

As for Windows/Linux and ASP.NET/PHP, I don't think you'll notice any huge differences. If your org is more comfortable with Microsoft products, Windows-based solutions are an easier sell.

I checked out the SchoolWires site and a live site that uses it, and it looks like a pretty straightforward CMS... comparable with the other major players.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

tclaremont — Thu, 07 May 2009 19:21:05 GMT

At the risk of sounding over simplistic, I think it is safe to say that ANY effort along these lines is going to be doomed without support from the staff.

If Sharepoint did not get embraced and was summarilly placed in the discard pile, then what on earth makes management think that a home grown CMS built on ASP is going to fly?

Perhaps it is time for management to do an autopsy on the Sharepoint effort and come up with a list of theories on why it died. Armed with that information, it might do you well to debate the fact that an ASP solution is not likely to address the fatal blows that doomed Sharepoint.

Without staff commitment to the CMS, it doesn't matter if it is written in ASP or Crayola.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

bigdprender — Thu, 07 May 2009 18:06:49 GMT

Another tidbit of info:

A SharePoint CMS had already been implemented over the last 2.5 years, but it's been very poorly supported internally and externally. Apparently, the powers that be are giving up on it and looking to this other ASP based system.

If I am listening the to threads correctly, without credible backend support, any CMS would be doomed...? Also, there seems to be differing views on the Windows platform for such things...

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

bigdprender — Thu, 07 May 2009 17:34:11 GMT

A lot of my posts on Facebook are largely ignored (by everyone but my wife) ...I'm pleasantly surprised to see useful feedback on this forum though.

Jokes aside, I feel as though my voice will count for something if I, along with the webmaster, form a united front on this. What I am looking for here is some simple language to support my broad and possibly vague concerns. I also want someone to tell me if my concerns are unnecessary, if that's truly the case. Our boss (one of the decision-makers) will not understand much technospeak, so I have to craft my delivery appropriately.

Our efforts may be futile, because I have already experienced the effects of decisions made without the input of the main users, but like tclaremont said, I'll sleep better knowing that I tried.

Thank you all for any help you can provide.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

tclaremont — Thu, 07 May 2009 16:45:37 GMT

Well, now that we have that out of the way...

What is your objective here? Do you have an alternative solution to the problem? This will likely dictate your direction at this point.

I think there is a consensus on this thread that ASP is not likely to be a prudent choice. However, without an alternative suggestion, your protests are likely to fall on deaf ears.

This is a classic case where the real issue is not a computer problem, but rather a "people" problem. In this instance, diplomacy usually works best.

My suggestion is to do your homework with regard to a solution that addresses all of the issues illustrated in this thread, and present your findings in an objective manner. Make sure you include whatever "pros" you can find for classic ASP, too. Let your findings tell the tale. Make this a "technology" debate, and not a "people" debate. If you make it personal you will lose.

If that approach does not work, then the odds are good that nothing is going to change the decision-maker's mind anyway. Once the decision is made, regardless of the outcome, you can sleep at night knowing that you made an effort.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

bigdprender — Thu, 07 May 2009 16:32:12 GMT

Anyone familiar with these guys? http://www.schoolwires.com

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

bigdprender — Thu, 07 May 2009 16:21:23 GMT

I appreciate the feedback...but I do know the difference between ASP and ASP.net. The proposed system is ASP.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

tclaremont — Thu, 07 May 2009 16:13:18 GMT

ASP, versus ASP.NET raises a lot of red flags in my mind. If the proposal was written in 1994, I might jump on the bandwagon, but times change.

Forward-thinking logic tells me that a more current (not necesarilly cutting edge) platform will prove to be a more prudent choice. Maintenance will likely be easier. Finding talent to support or reprogram it will be less of a chore as well.

Let's give the benefit of the doubt, and hope the proposal involved ASP.NET, and not the earlier ASP.

With that being said, the database engine is another decision that needs to be made. Just about any modern language will allow the utilization of multiple database platforms. This affords a level of independence that caters to scalability, too.

Re: Hi! I'm Daryl & I'm concerned about an ASP-based CMS

djanke — Thu, 07 May 2009 13:59:21 GMT

Any mature CMS should be able to work with the major databases (SQL Server, Oracle, Postgre, MySql), so that shouldn't be a problem.

If you're setting up a new system, there's no reason to use ASP. It's old technology. ASP.NET will give you better performance and less of a headache.

Out of curiousity, what ASP-based CMS are you considering?

The open source ASP.NET CMS landscape is dominated by DotNetNuke. I'm really not a fan of DotNetNuke's interface, and I've been trying to find a good alternative. Umbraco, Graffiti, N2, and AxCMS have made my short list, but I haven't really looked too close, yet. DotNetNuke's latest version is supposed to have some good changes, so I might give them a 2nd chance.