Accessible Technology and Public Computing

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

wisdomliving — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:57:25 GMT

Unfortunately this doesn't make a lot of sense because Church's and other religious groups can be eligible for donations providing they meet the simple requirement of a non secular community designation - in other words, provide assurance that they (also) do not discriminate on religious grounds.

Not according to techsoups policies, see their policy below.

the vendors decide which areas of the non-profit arena that they want to donate to. Some vendors are more restrictive than others. I know it is frustrating to not qualify, as our org has ran into this with Cisco and Adobe, but Tech Soup's hands are tied. If they violate their agreements with the vendors, then the vendor will pull the product and noone will receive donated products.

This is the most accurate and true response on this thread

Do you have proof that orgs such as the one you mention qualify for aid? If so, maybe this discussion could get more interesting.

Let's put this to bed once and for all. Revman, the vendors are the boogers, not Techsoup, Microsoft, Adobe, and some of the others are very outspoken against God and religious organizations, a cursory search on google (another anti-christian group) will prove this.

Anyway, they say the proof is in the pudding, so here it is frfom the horses mouth:

An official response from Techsoup:

Thank you for choosing TechSoup Stock!

Generally, religious organizations should choose a religious Organization Type and Subtype when registering with TechSoup Stock. Depending on an organization's activities, some faith-based nonprofits may register with a non-religious or secular Organization Type/Subtype. If we are able to determine that your religious organization has a secular component that is accessible to all communities, this may increase your eligibility for donations from certain partners.

A secular organization type is defined as an organization or program which provides non-religious services to people regardless of their religious beliefs and which does not propagate a belief in a specific faith.

Example: A food bank with nonprofit or charity status that is run by a church, but that provides food and/or meals to anyone who qualifies for its services, regardless of their religious beliefs and without proselytizing.

Please Note: If your secular organization or program qualifies for TechSoup Stock donations, the church or religious parent organization will not qualify for a separate TechSoup Stock account.

Churches that wish to qualify their secular organization or program for TechSoup Stock donations must register using the secular organization or program name.

Example: "St. Anthony's Dining Room" vs. "St Anthony's Church"

A Name Clarification Letter which explains the discrepancy between the name on the 501(c) (3) and the name of the organization or program registering with a secular Organization Type will also be required. This letter must be on your organization's letterhead and should follow the template below.

Please use the following template for your letter:

The name on our 501(c) (3) letter is: The CompuMentor Project
The name registered with TechSoup Stock is: TechSoup.org
The reason for the difference is: TechSoup.org is a project of CompuMentor/our organization officially changed our name in 1999



Religious or faith-based nonprofits wishing to be qualified with a secular, non-religious Organization Type must also provide responses to the following questions:

Secular Clarification Questionnaire

1.       What is your secular organization/program's mission?

2.       Does the secular Organization Type that you have chosen (or wish to choose) reflect your secular organization/program's primary mission? Yes / No

3.       Does use of your secular program or access to your secular services require religious affiliation or participation in religious activities of any kind (prayer, religious services, worship, etc.)? Yes / No

4.       Does your organization proselytize, attempt to convert, or advocate religious practices or adherence to particular beliefs while administering your secular program? Yes / No

5.       Will technology solutions acquired through TechSoup Stock be primarily dedicated to supporting non-religious activities? Yes / No

Please copy these questions and the corresponding answers into a document that you can print onto your organization's letterhead. Be sure to include your name, telephone number and government tax ID number in your letter so that we may associate them with your account. Please fax this and the Name Clarification Letter to 415-633-9444.

All TechSoup Stock donation programs comply with the donor guidelines negotiated with our partners. Validating an Organization's Type is critical in ensuring that donations are distributed appropriately. We look forward to your response and we appreciate your participation in our program.

Sincerely,

TechSoup Stock Customer Service

TechSoup Stock - TechSoup Stock - Help/Contact Us

P: 800-659-3579 x700

F: 415-633-9444

Any "Yes" answer to the above 5 question disqualifies you as any religious organization. the discrimination is not between religions, it is discrimination against religion. Vendors just don't want to supply anyone that is religious based. Otherwise, non-profit as outlined by the IRS code, would qulaify, period.

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

jcravens42 — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:27:02 GMT

"Lots of religious based organizations have received stuff including YMCA, Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, Girls Scouts."

Just a quick correction: The Girl Scouts of the USA is not a religious-based organization. Members, nor volunteers, are never obligated to state any religious preference, even in the Girl Scout oath (this is in contrast to the Boy Scouts of America).

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

EvilNetworkOverlord — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:03:29 GMT

donc, elleryjuly,

If I may venture off-topic for a moment, thank you both for your support of my nom de guerre. It can be something of a distraction but it serves several useful purposes. And more often than not, it accurately reflects popular interpretation of both my Draconian network configurations and my general disposition.

-ENO

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

elliotharmon — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:22:54 GMT

Perhaps enough has been said already, but there's one more nuance I'd like to make sure is clear, both to revmedic and to anyone else who might come across this thread.

The "secular designation" used for certain TechSoup donors was put in place specifically to avoid discriminating against religious organizations. The much easier solution would have been simply to disallow all religious organizations. Instead, we allow religious organizations to demonstrate that the software donations will be used for projects that are not explicitly religious. Our customer service people would be very happy to chat with you about whether a project at your organization might be eligible (we do not require that you create a second 501(c)3 nonprofit). This is all because TechSoup cares about the social sector - religious organizations and all - and we want to help you however we can within the confines placed on us by donors.

Sincerely,
Elliot

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

tclaremont — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:38:18 GMT

I am often taken aback by the observation that religious organizations, more than any other orgnaization, are the the first to play the discrimination card, without having a true grasp of exactly what it means.

I went to McDonalds for breakfast this morning. Was that discriminatory against Burger King? I made a conscious decision to give my money to McDonalds, and intentionally excluded Burger King. I am expecting a call any minute from Burger King telling me how discriminatory I am. Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it?

Tech Soup offers no software for the Commodore Vic 20. I have one in the basement and feel very slighted that they refuse to offer software for it. Why are they discriminating against me?

I am quite sure that your religious organization practices discrimination, too. If you don't think so, then send me fifty bucks toward my car repair bill. What? You dont send money to people who need car repairs??? Sounds like your definition of discrimination.

This is not "FreeStuff.com". This is a method of distributing software from the people that own it, to the efforts that software manufacturers would like to support. If your particular organization is not a subject of interest on the part of the software manufacturer, then take it up with them, not TechSoup.

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

donc — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 03:14:27 GMT

In hope of making this thread at least bearable to others with similar questions, copy below of a post just made to another thread.

Hi,

Noticing this is your first post here, it might be helpful to this and other responses if you could complete your profile so we know who you are, and the organization you represent (always nicer to converse with someone by name :-)

Symantec state that "Organizations that advocate, support, or practice discrimination based on age, ethnicity, gender, national origin, disability, race, size, religion, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic background are not eligible to participate in this program".

Taking this in proper context - Rather obviously we all discriminate every time we make a decision, and wearing the hat of a donor (I am a volunteer here on TechSoup and also employed by a large corporate donor, albeit not one of the donors here), sometimes we do need to make decisions about who we will, and will not donate to - this is probably one of the more common (and at times difficult) decisions facing every business at this time of economic crisis - We cannot donate to everyone, so at some point decisions need to be made. Those who miss out on donations need to understand it is not bias or prejudice that precludes them, it's simple economics and the immediacy of donation priorities - eg: my company has just donated $1 million to victims of the Australian Bushfires, and rather obviously this means we will not be donating to some other orgs this year. All company's have a budget within which to work, and a budgeted amount for donations - it simply doesn't stretch to giving to everyone.

Your ineligibility results from a finite set of determining factors designed to spread the 'donation dollar' as far as humanly possible - but at the end of the day some orgs do miss out. Fortunately most charitable organizations and individuals understand this. It is not prejudicial, it is not discriminatory.

Still I wish you good luck in your quest for people to donate to your organization.

Don

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

donc — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:41:08 GMT

What a ridiculous comment - John do you truthfully know the person behind this tongue-in-cheek handle or are you simply being sarcastic? I am however now curious... John is all of this nonsense just sport for you, or do you really claim to represent a religious organization? - if the later, it's unfortunate the attributes of charity and understanding seem to be so far from your grasp!

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

elleryjuly — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:32:43 GMT

EvilNetworkOverlord - the best name here and so true. I love it.

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

elleryjuly — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:29:09 GMT

A more apt and truthful title would be Techsoup allows some vendors to violate their own policy. There are also polices against donation to groups with political activities and governmental entities like schools (thus age discrimination). I have always taken the tack that f someone discriminates let them know it directly and allow them to change before yelling out publicly.

Secondly church are discriminated against not people of faith organizations (like kids/schools). Lots of religious based organizations have received stuff including YMCA, Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, Girls Scouts.

Frankly these type of arguments, on all sides, are only meant to prove mental , emotional or spiritual superiority and not to solve the problem or have anything to do with right or wrong.

Lastly, I am wiling to work with vendors so that churchs are allowed, if that is really what you want.

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

EvilNetworkOverlord — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:38:29 GMT

Revmedic,

As long as we're building this molehill into a mountain, it's probably worth mentioning that two somewhat different issues are being treated as one.

Religious discrimination is generally considered, from both a legal and practical standpoint, as favoritism or preferential treatment toward one religion over another. That is not the case here. So an accusation of religious discrimination, or a claim of conflict in Tech Soup's anti-discrimination policy is inappropriate, no matter how much one whines about it.

The real question is whether it's fair and ethical for some donors to exclude all religious organizations; or all libraries, or all health care facilities or anything else for that matter. I don't know the donors' reasoning behind their exclusions so I can't answer that question, and neither can you unless you've asked them. One thing that comes to mind though is that churches usually derive on-going income from a congregation and may therefore be considered "less needy" than a soup kitchen or homeless shelter that doesn't have that luxury.

Since you seem uncomfortable with Tech Soup's current position on the subject, what exactly do you think they should do about it?

-ENO

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

donc — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:32:20 GMT

The proverbial brick wall Bruce .. but thanks for trying :-)

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

revmedic — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:59:27 GMT

Nice pat answer that does nothing to address the point. I suppose I could make a dozen moral comparisons here, but it would be a waste of time.

The point is, by omission of action you are allowing organizations to discriminate against people of faith. You are correct in that's their choice, but in allowing them to do that through your service, you are complicit in their discrimination and in violation of your policy.

I know I'm not going to get anywhere here, so I'll just end it with this post.

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

adminbruce — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:29:12 GMT

Dear John Oscar,

Thanks for your comments concerning TechSoup eligibility requirements for donations. TechSoup is charged with the administration of donation programs of more than two dozen generous technology companies, each of which has its own donation guidelines. Additionally, TechSoup has an anti-discrimination policy that organizations must comply with in order to participate in our program. However, it’s important to distinguish between the donors’ program rules and our anti-discrimination policy.

The donors’ rules should be viewed as a means for each of our partners to focus their limited donations to organizations conducting social benefit activities they wish to promote. Requesting a TechSoup donation is not unlike applying for a grant for which an organization must be screened and determined to be eligible.

Faith-based and religious organizations are actually eligible for a broad range of donations through TechSoup programs; religious organization which demonstrate that they operate a secular program open to all, without religious content or proselytizing, may even have broader access to donations, depending on their organizational activities, budget size and other donor rules.

TechSoup’s anti-discrimination policy reflects the core values of inclusion and diversity central to our organization’s philosophy.

We hope that we will be able to serve your organization in the future.

Bruce Ackley

TechSoup

Customer Service

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

revmedic — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:50:06 GMT

I understand completely what a donation is, but that is non sequitur. The main point was having a non-discrimination policy and then discriminating or by allowing other to discriminate being a logical counterdiction.

Either way, it appears no one is going to change anyone's mind here, so be blessed, and have a good weekend. :)

Re: Techsoup seems to violate it's own policy

donc — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:22:30 GMT

Revmedic discrimination is something we all do every time we make a decision - I suspect what you really accusing (Techsoup? - Vendors? not sure which) of is prejudice - you are trying to imply prejudicial actions with respect to donations... but seemingly you still misunderstand just what a donation is, and now go further to suggest (someone?) is saying something out of the 'side of their mouth' yet acting in a reverse manner. I'm sorry but you are talking nonsense. Nobody is being forced to give anything - Nobody is presenting an argument pro or con any particular belief system... What happens here, is that donors (vendors) chose to donate to whomever they wish, as is their right.

(end for me on this)