Is the used computer market going away?

gimper, you need to compare apples to apples.  The computers on Tech Soup come with Office 2003 standard installed.  I am willing to venture a guess that it doesn't come with the Dell refurbs unless you want to pay more money. 

Ok even that being the case.  Techsoup has the office products for way less than that. 

Great conversation. I feel people give up on hardware far too quickly (hence the thrust of my own side business).

One comment to ponder........why use MS Office products at all? OpenOffice should work for almost everyone, and ABI-Word is a great word processor if that's all you need.

Wouldn't that keep costs even lower? Typically they also consume lower CPU etc.......although the latest OpenOffice seems a little hungrier than I think it should be.

 

 

 

 

 

Ideal would be to use openoffice however the learning curve for some is well.  insurmountable. sadly.  Also, if all your vendors and clients use ms office it makes for some uhhh well conversion issues. Secondly, the longer hardware goes without refresh the more support is required.  I typically use a 2 year refresh cycle. 

GreenerPC:

One comment to ponder........why use MS Office products at all? OpenOffice should work for almost everyone, and ABI-Word is a great word processor if that's all you need.

With the Microsoft Donation program for NPOs the cost of the software is very low compared to the learning curve and comfort level of open office.  If we didn't have access to the Microsoft donations, Open Office would be the tool of choice.

When training people for word processing and spread sheets, many had Microsoft training in school or other employment so there is a familiarity and comfort level with the product.  If you send some one out for a book or a class for additional training, there are many levels of Microsoft Office classes at the community center, united way, private training firms, community college, and adult education.  Classes for open office = 0.  If I send them to the book store for self training, I tell them to browse the Office books to find one in a style that makes sense to them, they have a choice of 10 to 15 books on Office.  Their choice of books on open office is one or two.

Dave

What many of the posters appear to be missing is that there is no single solution for every situation. To imply that one operating system is "better" or "more appropriate" than another is naive unless you know the situation of the organization.

Microsoft products appear to be more heavilly promoted than the open source alternatives on Tech Soup quite probably because there is more demand for them. Also, there are tons of places on the net where you can download free software (like Open Office). There is no need to TS to provide an avenue to obtain it. You cant just jump on the net and download a legal copy of Microsoft software. Ergo, TS lists it as a service they provide. That is not a commentary on whether one is "better" than the other. That is reality.

Microsoft products are often competitively priced when you look at the total cost of ownership. Look at the NPO price offered. Look at the number of MS professionals willing and able to support the products. Look at the fact that an organization that has used MS products for years will likely have a lower training challenge, and things start to add up. Comparing the list price of Microsoft Office to the "list price" of Open Office and declaring a winner is naive.

It is OK to hate all things Mircrosoft, but taking the blinders off once in a while will make you more valuable to your organization.

 

I wasn't trying to be an MS 'hater' per se, just pointing out that there may be alternatives to MS products that may work just fine. My parents ran a small company for 20 years (<6 employees) and did not have needs beyond a basic word processor. They would have benefited from a reduced cost alternative.

I wasn't aware of the special pricing for NPOs on MS products which changes the profile of what 'best' means. I do agree that every situation is different and you do need to think about TCO.

:)

 

 

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True.  As I said I would love to move everyone I support to openoffice but I do not have that kind of time..  With the User questions I get about outlook I cannot imagine the questions I would get about open office. 

Christian_SEO:

I would say no, although the market may get smaller as time goes on. The thing about used computers is that while anything that is about 5 years old is considered "obsolete", the truth is that many older machines still have the potential for a long as useful life for either a less-demanding user and application, or some dedicated use as a firewall, web server, Asterisk server, Nagios machine, or something else. With the cost of upgrades so low, it doesn't take much to give an old machine much more resources to work with, such as RAM or a terabyte hard drive.

I agree with Christian regarding uses for older machines, and in fact use some older equipment for exactly such purposes, I think the above comment misses the point of the initial question. While there are certainly uses for older equipment that I may be taking out of front line user service, that is not the same as actually going out and buying old equipment for such uses.

I mean really, look at the laptops available here on techsoup. they are all in the $300-400 range. I just bought my son a new laptop, retail, at Staples. This was a brand new machine with warranty with 3 gigs RAM 259 gig HD fast processor etc., etc. and the latest OS. I paid $322.00 for this machine. If I were looking for a laptop for any purpose for our organization, given the pricing of both, even here on Techsoup, I'm going to go with the new machine.

In the desktop arena, yes, there is a bigger difference in price but again, not that big a difference. And as somebody else has mentioned, you can get factory refurbs at retail stores for not all that much more that TS admin fees and again, with newer, faster, bigger stuff under the hood, in many cases with manufacturer warranties.

So, while your arguments are well made for utilizing older equipment you already have, I don't see the incentive to go out and actually buy old machines.

Kevin

 

 

I think it is important to point out that the used computer market is significantly different than it was a decade ago. If we look at history, there was a time when the processors were increasing in speed at a significant rate. There was considerably more horsepower to be obtained by replacing the machine even every couple of years. As a result, a three or four year old machine was not very desirable.

Nowadays, the difference in speed from generation to generation has been reduced. There are other benefits of newer hardware, but the fact of the matter is that even a five to seven year old machine is still very much usable.  Combined with the number of computer manufacturers in the market, and the increasing number of computer users, and you wind up with a huge surplus of used machines, and a huge surplus of PARTS to fix aging, but still serviceable parts.

To bring the issue full circle, the price of new hardware keeps going down, which in turn drives the prices of USED equipment down. Huge supply, plus price competition from NEW hardware equals a case where the only way to sell OLD equipment is at rock bottom prices. Rock bottom prices mean low profit. Low profit means a low number of companies interested in playing in that market.

The way I see it, it is not the demand that is missing, but rather the ability for a reseller to make a profit.

agardk:

So, while your arguments are well made for utilizing older equipment you already have, I don't see the incentive to go out and actually buy old machines.

Hi Kevin,

The laptop you bought at $322 new I doubt has a business-class OS (Windows 7 Home Basic or Starter Edition is my guess...  maybe Premium).  So we're looking at...  $80-150 to upgrade to Windows 7 Professional.  I'd also rather support the same models of systems across my networks than a mishmash of different models, manufacturers, versions of operating system, and hardware.  Two or three models to support is a lot easier than 15.  So if a new staffer comes on and I have to buy another computer, I'd rather buy a used one of the same model in my network than a new one of a different model.

So for a smaller non-profit, this might not be so much of a concern.  For those supporting larger environments, it might be.  But I'm still sticking with used PCs in many cases because in my experience, gently used business-grade computers are easier to maintain than new consumer-grade ones.  And since I'm the support for many smaller non-profits, I suggest they also but business-grade computers because its easier for my techs to support them and in the long run they save money over paying for us to troubleshoot new issues on unique configurations.  For example, we know through experience that the OptiPlex SX270 machines are known to get blown capacitors on their motherboards.  Since we already know this, its very easy and fast for us to diagnose when supporting a client that has these.  If they had HP Pavilion consumer-grade special, it would take extra research for us and extra cost for them to diagnose issues that weren't say.... common Microsoft issues.

We buy business grade laptops in the range of $800 to $1000 brand new.  They come with XP pro but do not come with Microsoft Office like the refurbs on Tech Soup.  We could get by purchasing used machines, but choose new because of the expectations of our physicians when they want to take it with them on their vacations.  

I agree with Chris that home class computers shouldn't be used in the office.  You might get a pc with identical specs but different brand parts in each.  I like the fact that if a user's computer won't turn on that I can pop out their hard drive, put it in an identical machine and have them running in minutes while I troubleshoot their computer issues.   

As I stated earlier.  You can get new machines with typically better hardware, warranty etc.  for less than a used machine.  OK so you get an os, office etc.  well if you are on the techsoup donation list these things are ridiculously cheap so instead of 322 you pay an extra 7 bucks for office, and an extra say 12 for the os.  It is still cheaper and you get better hardware and a warranty.  Also let's not forget with a new machine you have a vendor you can lean on if there are problems.  You still come out way ahead of the used devices and you have no planned obsolescence.  As I stated earlier. I do agree they should be major vendor and the same.  For example I buy refurbs from an outlet they are covered as new so you get all the bennies of buying new without the price of new.  Greener than buying all new and still get the best bang for the buck especially if you wait for a coupon.  For example dual core, 2 gig ram, 200 gig hd, latitude with 1  year warranty after 20% off coupon and free shipping came to 242 each+ tax.   For a small office this is a very viable solution for a large office I definitely would not go this route as it is catch as catch can.    

gimper48:

and an extra say 12 for the os.

Well, technically the Home Basic, Starter and Home Premium editions of Vista of Windows 7 do not qualify for the Windows 7 Professional upgrade.  And faster specs does not mean better hardware.  Its faster, but "better" in my mind also takes into account reliability and supportability.  I'd agree with you on smaller offices, but also that depends on whom they've hired to support them - it may drive costs up to have consumer-grade products.  For example, I love my ASUS Netbook, its awesome.  I can't get over how great that little machine is.  But the damn power supply needs to be frozen, yes I said frozen, often - now almost once a day, in order to work.  Consumer-grade.