Looks like I missed the flame session as well.
It may seem contrary to my previous posts, but an advantage to Access is that when you experience the inevitable employee turnover, the prospects of finding someone proficient in Access is a pretty easy task.
For the right size project, the ease of use features may very well make up for the shortcomings. The ability to easilly upsize to SQL Server once your database outgrows Access is noteworthy as well.
As a compromise of sorts, let me say that one of the strengths of Access, it's ease of use, can actually work as a detriment to future upgradability since the Access model is so forgiving. It will allow an inexperienced user to create what amounts to an atrocious database design and actually get away with it. In all fairness, I guess there are a lot of programs that allow that!
Joined on 07-20-2005
Hartford, CT
Hi Don,
Its the big green image on the top right of the launch page. Leads you here: http://www.dabbledb.com/pricing/
I have a commons account to play around with, and we bought a basic account to be able to share some information between about 5 people.
TechSoup has published a great article from Idealware on
A Few Good Tools: Low-Cost Constituent Databases that those searching for an affordable database may wish to check out. Share your feedback here!
Thanks Chris - It would want to be good, it's expensive at US$2,400.00 over 4 years for just 15 users!
I'm really not a fan of per-month software licensing models... (or pretty much of renting in general)... prefer to pay upfront. Ownership has it's priveledges!!
Cheers, Don
Joined on 07-20-2005
Hartford, CT
$2,400 over 4 years, but what are you getting for that cost?
1. Server
2. Web-accessible
3. Encrypted traffic between your users and your database
4. Maintenance of the system
5. Great user interface, low learning curve, fantastic reporting tools.
$2,400 for four years seems pretty affordable when you're looking at it from all the right angles. And that's if you even need the security/privacy of information. If what you're doing is all public, then you don't even need to pay anything for 15 users - its free. Expensive is definitely not a word I'd use.
What about the maintenance of an owned database if the data gets corrupted? Who's going to fix it? How about the machine that its running on - what if that goes down? Surely the cost compares when you're looking at 4 years and all the angles.
http://www.dabbledb.com isn't for everyone, but it has some great features and is worth some people taking a look at.
Who knows, maybe the original poster, a TechSoup ataffer, will post to clarify the purpose of the original post that started this thread.
Answers are really different if what is desired is just a database to do data management vs. a database that also has the ability to build forms and reports, etc.
Bob
Sounds like you're sold on it Chris and I hope it works well for you.
I would always be cautious of an ASP model database... what happens when WAN and Internet links go down? (a far more common scenario than LAN links failing)... or the company providing this database goes bust?... or we want to interface the data stored in this database real-time with some other local database or data source?
I don't doubt this product has application in the NPO sector, (although I'm having trouble thinking off too many scenarios where an NPO would want their entire dataset open to the public!!) - but at the quoted price I'm still not sure if it really qualifies as "a good, low-cost database".
Cheers -
Joined on 07-20-2005
Hartford, CT
Heh, yep. Definitely sold on it. :) Not to fit every need, though. MS Access is a fine database and its cost is very reasonable considering the breaks NPOs get from Microsoft. So is SQL, depending on the scope. but Access is a good all-round, all-inclusive tool that doesn't require additional software purchase to report or build interface screens. Even has nifty wizards to help people along.
First, I cast another vote for dabbledb - really nice product.
Second, I hope it is OK to mention our own product - it definitely fits into the category of low-cost databases. It is kind of like dabbleDB but it is specifically for non-profits constituents databases while dabbleDB can be used for any kind of database whatsoever.
Wild Apricot is a
web-based member database primarily for associations, societies, clubs and other non-profits. It costs from $12/month including website hosting and handles constituents database, event registration and other stuff.
Finally on the topic of MS Access... Great database but I have seen so many problems with data corruption in multi-user scenarios... Maybe it has gotten way better than it was, but I would be scared of using it for multiple users.
Joined on 08-08-2006
TechSoup Member
I think Access is a great database for non-profits that do not want to spend thousands of dollars for a database.
It's easy to use, and there is a huge base of experienced Access users.
The main caution I would say, though, is that it is very easy to find people who say they know Access, and can do a little bit, but really, they don't understand it very well.
Like all Microsoft products, it is very easy to become productive, but there is a huge back end that will do amazing thngs, if you know how to use it.
The wizards are the lowest common denominator in the development world. You can do just about anything with a wizard, but it will be cludgey and really inefficient.
I have seen so many Access databases that were set up by people who did not know what they were doing.
The problem is, if you don't know Access, you will not be able to assess if the person you are bringing aboard knows Access, either!
And the people who are the weakest developers are the ones who are the biggest prima donnas, about not having anyone look at what they are doing, because they know they are taking the long way to do things.
It wouldn't hurt to find someone who knows Access and have them go over your database, after you've been using it for a year or so, and ask for suggestions, and maybe bring them in for a hour or two's training, if it's needed with your developer.
Most things in Access take only a little bit of knowledge. It's just that there are 10,000 things to know.
Joined on 09-04-2003
TechSoup Member
Thank you Margaret. I have been an independent Access/ VBA consultant and most of my jobs have been to come in and clean up a project started by an inexperienced Access developer that is no longer available. The biggest problem I see is that most people who say they know Access do not understand relational database theory and they set up the table structures incorrectly and end up "painting themselves into a hole." I would recommend a book called "Database Design for Mere Mortals" by Micheal Hernandez to anyone before thet set off to create a database with MS Access or MySQL or what ever database you choose.
By the way I also teach MS Access at for the United Way's Management Assistance Program in Houston, TX
There are some highly valuable points coming out of this - thanks everyone!
Another problem I often find with database designs in general (not just Access) is the matter of the graphical user interface (GUI). Some developers are excellent and do follow recognised best practice when building a database GUI (example of GUI best-practice design concepts for Windows applications can be found
here)...
However many developers choose to ignore basic good design concepts (maybe because they think they can do better!) and seemingly do their best to bamboozle users with an array of buttons, form fields and other elements that appear to be just dropped at will onto the database form. A database is only 'good', if the database is able to be used! The best database GUI is that which is so intuitive that it's just another application with familiar menu's and commands.
I second the recommendation for "Database Design For Mere Mortals". I bought my copy used on the most popular book store online, and it was under ten bucks. Even a single tip from that book, and it pays for itself. After 25 years in the field, I still learned a couple of new angles and ways to think about things.
Access is a double edged sword. It is intentionally designed to be easy to use, which allows it to capture a large part of the market. The problem is that it becomes easy to use it INCORRECTLY. Because of this, there are a lot of "Access Developers" that are NOT database developers.
Before picking up a book and teaching yourself Access, I would consider it REQUIRED READING to read a book on database design and theory.
Access is a tool to build databases that YOU DESIGN. A good database designer is more valuable to the equation than a good database tool.
A good analogy is painting a house. LOTS of people think it looks easy. LOTS of people think they can do it well. LOTS of people wind up with a paint job to looks 'OK' and then starts to chip and peel after a couple seasons of use.
As I stated in an earlier post, I am not a big fan of Access for MY purposes, but if you ARE going to use Access, doing it right from the ground up will allow you to scale up to SQL Server or the database of your choosing if and when the time comes.
Joined on 03-21-2001
Los Angeles
That link for XP GUI best practices give a 5MB executable, which unpacks in to ~ 130 files, mostly html, gif and jpg.
'philosophy.htm" says that this is what matters for XP:
Fresh
Desirable
Colorful
Simple
> That link for XP GUI best practices give a 5MB executable, which unpacks in to ~ 130 files, mostly html, gif and jpg (snip)
Ummm, yes... is the number of files causing you problems? May be able to compress it all into a single non-executable file if it would help you...
The download referenced is a visal design guide provided for Windows application developers. It's not really for the novice or the 'Fresh, Desirable, Colorful and Simple' crowd - and a lot of people develop applications in Access - it's not just for databases.
Maybe it's not widely known but when Access is combined with runtime redistributable components, it is a full-blown application development platform - people have developed programs in Access for all types of purposes, including computer games! - The fact the Jet Engine, MS SQL or other database engines can be utilized by Access is just one of it's advantages.