Macs in nonprofit environments

Hey Rog! Yes, the new Mac Intel machines are fantastic. One of the major reasons people didn't use Macs before is because of compatibility with other systems. Well, they're pretty darn compatible now! heh. In peer-to-peer environments they work right out of the box with sharing folders both ways with Windows. I listen to the TWIT podcast and they've been talking about the Mac Intels for months! My next computer will definitely be one.

I would say that as more applications are becoming web delivered and less dependent on the browser you're using, we'll see more and more Mac adoption. The machines run fast, they are pretty, and have loads of options with virtualization. The beta version of Parallels will run Windows-based apps almost transparently to the user and appear as if they were native Mac apps - no switching into a virtual computer environment. ;) Now that's fancy!

Rog we don't use Mac's, and as far as I know nobody within 1,000 sq miles of me has a Mac since the 'old days' when Mac's were the standard computer in our schools (nowadays all are PC's).

The reason has nothing to do with form or function - Mac's are pretty and increasingly compatible with main-stream systems (Windows etc.)... It's because we can't get support for a Mac. If a PC breaks-down it's usually repaired within a day. HP and Dell etc have same-day turnaround for machines under warranty whereas a Mac can take 2-3 weeks because the hardware is still so proprietary (nobody else can fix a Mac but Mac, and Mac just don't provide good service).

Heard so much about the Macbook Pro I would love to give one a run... but I won't be buying one until a) they are cost competitive with other notebooks (i.e. < A$1,500), and b) Mac starts to offer some viable support options :-(

PS - Do you want this thread moved to the Hardware forum?

Cheers, Don

I recently got a used iMac G3... I turned it and instantly became addicted. That being said, I still use a PC on a day-to-day basis.

Ease of use is amazing, like Rog originally said. Macs are pretty much "perfect" from a technical standpoint, but the user base is just not there yet.

IMO, with the new updates to Paralells Desktop, which allows you to run Windows directly over OS X, and the new updates coming with Leopard, Macs need to seriously be considered for many different things. The price is probably the sticking point for most.

Don- Apple does offer a <$1500 notebook option, the MacBook, which is certainly a good option for someone who doesn't need all that power. The support is a little lax as far as time goes, especially if you aren't near an Apple store or Authorized repair place, but you don't have to (usually) worry about software, which is nice.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 (or maybe $0.03 :D )

Michael

Hi Michael,

Good points - and I'm sure I'll give a Macbook Pro a run at some time in the near future and probably fall in love with it - :-)

PS - The "A" in front of the dollar sign means non-US dollars... no <$1500 Mac's here, even though the cost of comparable Intel notebooks has now fallen below A$1000. Mac notebooks are on average about $500 - $1K dearer :-(.

I love my Mac, it's applications, it's stability, it's user interface, and yes it's pretty darn compatible these days.

That being said it is a long way from being a major player in business for 2 BIG reasons.

Native Macintosh Software for industry specific applications. Nobody's going to write software for a platform that controls such a small market share. Unfortunately until someone starts writing more mac versions of applications the quest to increase market share is going to remain an uphill battle. Yea there are ways to run your windows apps on a mac, but they are all at additional cost, and will require purchasing MS licenses also at additional cost.

Second problem is that above mentioned cost. If I want a nice 17" Notebook to replace my office desktop a dell will run me about $1000. The Mac is going to be $2800. Okay, is this apples to apples, not really, the 17" macbook is the slim, light, powerful flagship of the apple line. But they have no large screen options in lower end notebooks. to go to a 15" display ( the mimimum I would recommend for desktop replacement ) mac prices will start at $2000. This is a hard nut to swallow especially for a non-profit.

Jeffrey R. Anderson
Directory of Healthcare IT
Community Health Center of Buffalo, inc

If I want a nice 17" Notebook to replace my office desktop a dell will run me about $1000. The Mac is going to be $2800... etc..

I think you need to be really careful when comparing. I spent a little time today to do a cost/feature comparison of the $999 base Dell 17” laptop (Inspiron E1705) vs. the $2799 top-shelf MacBook Pro (hereafter "MBP") you mention, and you might be surprised to find that in order to get the E1705 to closely match the specs of the 17" MacBook Pro, you have to add options costing nearly the same amount of money. There are a myriad of options, but for this exercise, I only added options to the E1705 to match the MBP as possible. To wit:

17" Inspiron E1705: base price $999
17" MacBook Pro: base price $2,799

Processor---
E1705: 1.73 Core Duo
Option: add Core 2 Duo 2.16GHz, [add $375]
MBP: Core 2 Duo 2.33 Ghz
Comment: Core 2 Duo is successor to Core Duo, significantly faster, and Dell maxes out at 2.16 Ghz.

Operating System---
E1705: Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
Option: Windows XP Professional [add $149]
MBP: Mac OS X Tiger
Comment: It’s a no-brainer for a business computer to upgrade to the much more secure XP Pro with better networking and security.

Built-in display---
E1705: 17 inch Wide Screen XGA+ Display Included
Option: UltraSharp™ Wide Screen UXGA Display with TrueLife™ [add $149]
MBP: Apple 17” LCD display
Comment: Apple has no cheap display available, all are ultrasharp, though you do have option of matte or glossy. Max resolution on the Dell (1900x1200) is higher than MBP (1680 x 1050 pixels), though a Cnet reviewer wrote “1900x1200 is impressive but unnecessary and way too small.”

Memory--
E1705: 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz
Option: 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz [add $285]
MBP: 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz
Comment: E1705 limited to 2 GB max, MBP supports up to 3 GB of memory. This might not seem important now, but a few years down the road, who knows. We used to think 256 MB was a lot of memory.

Hard drive--
E1705: 80GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
Option: 160GB 5400 RPM SATA Hard Drive [add $125]
MBP:160GB 5400 RPM SATA Hard Drive

Video card--
E1705: Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Option: 256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory [add $99] X1600 not available.
MBP: ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 with 256MB of GDDR3 SDRAM
Comment: The X1400 is a midstream graphics card, the X1600 is a performance model. According to NoteBookReview.com, the X1400 “offers acceptable performance. Not great, but not terrible either” while the X1600 “is one of the most desirable notebook parts on the market.”
http://www.notebookreview.com/?newsID=3056. The X1600 supports an external display at a maximum resolution of 2560x1600, the X1400 no larger than 2048x1536.

Battery--
E1705: 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Option: 80 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery [add $49]
MBP: 68-watt-hour lithium-polymer battery
Comment: Dell offers a higher watt-hour battery than Apple with the MBP, but lithium-polymer is a more advanced technology than lithium ion, and Apple estimates 5.5 hrs of use. I could find not estimate of the E1705. I’ll call the 80 WHr Lithium Ion a wash with the 68-watt-hour lithium-polymer

Bluetooth--
E1705: No Bluetooth standard
Option: Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate) [add $20]
MBP: Built-in Bluetooth 2.0+EDR (Enhanced Data Rate)
Comment: A no-brainer upgrade for $20 on the Dell.

Security--
E1705: No anti-virus or anti-spyware software included.
Option: Norton Internet Security™ 2006 Edition 15-months [add $79]
MBP: Anti-virus software not needed at the present time.
Comment: Who can tell what the future holds, but after six years in use, there are no active viruses or spyware for Mac OS X. Experts have been saying for years it was coming soon. Maybe, but at the present time, the only malware you'll find with Mac anti-virus software are Windows malware.

Video editing and DVD burning--
E1705: No video editing, DVD burning software included
Option: MyDVD Plus:Copy DVDs,Edit Video,Effects,Photo Slideshows (DVD+RW only) [add $59]
MBP: Every Mac includes award-winning iLife application suite, iPhoto/iMovie/iDVD/iWeb/Garageband
Comment: iLife is one of the Mac’s huge advantages to which no Windows software can compare. It has brought many new users to the Mac.

Ports--
E1705: one IEEE 1394 (Firewire 400) integrated port, 6-USB 2.0 ports
MBP: Three USB 2.0 ports, one FireWire 400 port, one FireWire 800 port
Comment: Dell wins on USB ports, though most seldom need more than three USB ports on a portable. The Firewire 800 port is fantastic for backups to external drives, as it is nearly as fast as gigabit Ethernet.

Wired networking--
E1705: fast Ethernet – 10/100, no option to upgrade
MBP: 10/100/1000 “gigabit” Ethernet – emerging standard in offices.
Comment: You might not need it now, but you’ll miss it later.

Audio--
E1705: Standard audio in, no microphone
Option: no option
MBP: combined optical digital/audio line in, built-in microphone

Dimensions--
E1705: 15.5” wide x 11.3” deep x 1.6” thick – 7.943 lbs
MBP: 15.4” wide x 10.4” deep x 1” thick – 6.8 lbs
Comment: Thickness is the huge difference in perceived size differences

Video cam--
E1705: No built-in web cam
MBP: built-in iSight camera for video conferencing
Comment: …and it works really great… I use one often.

Memory card reader--
E1705: 5-in-1 removable memory card reader
MBP: no memory card reader included
Comment: Not a big sticking point for me, as I connect my camera directly to the computer for pic download anyway, but Dell wins on that feature.

Video Out--
E1705: Video: 15-pin monitor connector and Digital Video Interface (DVI) plus S-video
MBP: DVI video out with support plus VGA with included adapter, S-video, and composite video output with optional adapters
Comment: On Dell, you can only use one video interface at a time, so not a big advantage to having both jacks built-in. If you need S-video for a presentation, you’ll need the $19 adapter from Apple.

Remote--
E1705: no remote
Option: can get tv tuner and remote for $99, but not sure if it works with the Windows XP we need, so I did not include price differential.
MBP: Apple remote control included

Warranty--
E1705: 1 year warranty, no phone support
Option-- Dell On Call, 30day, Getting started Assistance, unlimited incidents would be $49, not counted here.
MacBook Pro: 1 year warranty, 90 days free phone support
Comment: Inspiron’s 1 year warranty is in-home, MBP is mail in. But with the 90 days free phone support vs. $49 for even 30 days on Dell, we’ll call it a wash and take the stock warranties for comparison. Both offer extended warranties, as well.

Additional MacBook Pro features not available on the E1705:
** Illuminated keyboard with ambient light sensor—amazing feature for low-light use, such as during presentations.
** Scrolling Trackpad – move two fingers up or down trackpad, and it scrolls like the scroll wheel of a mouse. Not sure if Dell offers anything similar.
** Magsafe power adapter – awesome feature for a laptop. If someone trips over laptop’s power cable, the magnetic power cable pops off rather than pulling laptop off the table. Again, excellent for presentations.
** Choice of operating system: You can install Windows XP on a MBP and choose from either Windows or Mac OS X on startup. Some retailers sell MBP with Windows installed this way, otherwise it’s just an option you have.

The Results!
Price of E1705 as configured to match base-model MacBook Pro as closely as possible:--- $2388

Note that Dell does have a more comparable 17” notebook from the get-go, the XPS M1710, but that starts at $2,359 and 8.71 pounds and still needs some upgrades to match specs. Reminder that I did not note specs which they already have in common, such as ExpressCard slot and 8x DL DVD burner.

You may disagree with me on the importance of some options, and Dell does offer some discounts through its complicated system of coupons, but all in all, and considering options, you cannot compare a $999 Dell laptop to a 17” MacBook Pro without digging a little deeper.

Few of us would seek to compare a $250,000 house to a $350,000 house without a lot more information.

It is important to note that Apple also has a line called just “MacBook” which starts at $1,099. Apple does not seek to be the low-cost provider, and they don’t have the entry-level (dare I say “lower quality”) models that Dell does, but they have quality and style which has won them great loyalty from Mac users.

In addition, Mac desktops, such as the iMac, offer tremendous performance for the dollar. The whole line of Macs are now Intel Core Duo or Core 2 Duo-based, and they are worth investigating. One non-profit I support replaced its 8 year old Mac G3 with an Intel iMac this past year, and they love it, and they expect it will give them many years of good use.

I would not count Apple out -- if anything they are getting more competitive. Sorry this was so long...

An interesting comparison toeknee - obviously a lot of effort went in to your post so thanks and well done...

My only comment is that IMO the software you added probably skews the equation in favour of the Mac by about $300 or so - Most NPO's would probably use AVG as a virus scanner, and anyone NOT running a virus scanner on a Mac is foolhardy; NPO's may be quite happy with XP Media Centre (or if not, they could puchase XP Pro through TS Stock at a vastly discounted price!) - Video editing... you have ommitted to mention Windows Movie Maker is free with XP and I doubt anything further would be required by most users...

All in all your comparison is favourable to our estimate (and my earlier post), that Mac notebooks are on average about $500 to $1000 dearer than comparable notebooks. Whether or not individual purchasers think the Mac is worth this extra cost is of course up to the individual.

Cheers, Don

anyone NOT running a virus scanner on a Mac is foolhardy

Then color me foolhardy. I run occasional scans with ClamXav (free), but if/when such time arrives that there is an actual propogating virus for OS X (not just a proof of concept unable to spread itself), there will then be a delay while anti-virus definitions are updated to recognize and handle said virus, during which time it will be ALL over the tech media, and I can then get serious about anti-virus. But unless the definitions have been updated to recognize a virus, running anti-virus software is false security and takes attention away from more important habits needed by all computer users-- not opening attachments from people you don't know or don't expect to be sending you an attachment, and (in OS X's case) don't put in an administrative password when you don't know what it's for.

Most NPO's would probably use AVG as a virus scanner

Good point, I install it on a lot of consulting clients' computers myself. However, it always seems to be a surprise to most non-tech oriented people, that there is something other than "Norton" or "McAfee" that everyone is always telling them they have to have on their computer.

Video editing... you have ommitted to mention Windows Movie Maker is free with XP and I doubt anything further would be required by most users...

arg! WMM 2.1 with Media Center 2005 has minimal improvements over XP version 2.1 that came with XP SP2 which had minimal improvements over WMM 2.0 which came out in 2002. My own experience and that of many I've talked to is that WMM is an exercise in frustration. *Something* always seems to go wrong, and it makes people think they are too stupid to make videos. iMovie/iDVD is light years ahead of it. Now, there's a new version coming out with Vista, and I cannot speak to that, but there's also a new version of iLife coming out this month.

they could puchase XP Pro through TS Stock at a vastly discounted price!

I'm new around here and just found that out perusing the site. Very nice. It's a great deal, however, I have served on three non-profit boards in the past several years, and I never heard of TechSoup. You have a long way to go before NPO's find the site in the kind of numbers it deserves!

...your comparison is favourable to our estimate (and my earlier post), that Mac notebooks are on average about $500 to $1000 dearer than comparable notebooks

Wait a minute-- "average" $500 to $1000 more? I doubt you could find any notebook which cost $1,000 less than a truly comparable Mac. Even $500 is patently ridiculous when talking the level of notebook computers an NPO might buy (I would require really good justification why staff would need a notebook of any stripe, much less one with a 17" screen, when you get a lot more computing power for your buck in a desktop computer). The non-"Pro" Macbooks start at $1,100 and compare very favorably to other makers (see this very unbiased comparison as an example--http://kb.wisc.edu/showroom/page.php?id=3045 - and scroll down to the side-by-side chart.
The reason I have become such a Mac advocate is that I make a lot of money fixing Windows problems, especially suffered by people who think a $500 desktop computer is a good deal. In most cases, and unless you know how to fix things yourself, it's not. Over the past few years I have convinced a fair number of clients, friends, and family to switch to Macs, and not a single one regrets it, many thank me often. Apple computers are NOT by any stretch of the imagination perfect or without failures. But they are better for most users, and they are cheaper in the long run if you figure your time spent troubleshooting is worth something (and many people don't, sadly).

I guess my beef was just the flippant "If I want a nice 17" Notebook to replace my office desktop a dell will run me about $1000.  The Mac is going to be $2800." It was somewhat tempered by the successive sentences, but the impression was made, and it's really not even close to accurate.

Cheers!

Most NPO's would probably use AVG as a virus scanner

Hi Don. I definitely disagree with you here. The free version of AVG anti virus is not licensed for use in non-profit environments - only home environments. So you are still going to have to buy the AVG Network Edition. They do offer something like 30% discount, and it is cheaper than its Symantec and McAfee counterparts. But your statement of most NPO's using AVG is far from true. Most NPOs are probably using MacAfee or Norton/Symantec because that's what came with their computer. AVG does not have nearly the market penetration that these older companies do, though it is gaining. I personally use it and recommend it to my clients (especially now that you can't get Symantec via Tech Soup) - but its quite a stretch to say most (or even a significant percentage) NPOs use it.

Your statement about $500-$1000 more expensive - that I agree with. I consider the Mac to be a valid replacement for workstation-class systems (Precision and Precision laptops) - not standard business class systems (optiplex and lattitude). So anyone looking to just replace a business-class system with a Mac is probably not looking at it from the right angle. From what I understand, Apple wants to be high-class of the computer market. They do have a larger margin of profit than Dell does, definitely. But they are advertising to a smaller demographic. Artists are used to paying a lot of money for their equipment. Techies with a lot of money to spend on their electronics and want performance over functionality are also going to be looking at these.

I see the Macbook Pro and the higher-end Mac desktops as tools for a few people in an organization (system admins, graphic artists, etc) as opposed to mass-deployment. Definitely overkill for web browsing, word processing and email.

I've been playing with the Mac mini - that might be more comparable to an optiplex or a dimension. Its pretty nice.

Toeknee writes:

"Wait a minute-- "average" $500 to $1000 more? I doubt you could find any notebook which cost $1,000 less than a truly comparable Mac. Even $500 is patently ridiculous"

My friend by your own account (in your first post) you state the price difference between a base Macbook Pro and a comparable Dell notebook is $411.00 ($2,799 - $2,388) - this discounts that you also added $149 for XPO Pro, as well as costing in other software that really is only appliceable from a personal perspective and the prices are not current for NPO's on this forum (TS members). Far from being ridiculous, a price difference of > $500 is in fact supported by your own figures. I know Mac users tend to love and sometimes be evangelistic about their machines and software - :-) - and this can make valid comparison difficult... but we should accept how the numbers add up... and... it's not a criticism noting that Mac's are more expensive, some people willingly pay more for what they perceive as being a quality product.

Just as a PS... for my part I would never buy a Dell notebook. Toshy's or HP for me because IMO they are not only better built, but also have better support and are available at better prices.

Chris writes:

"The free version of AVG anti virus is not licensed for use in non-profit environments"

Very true, and poor comparison on my part. Most NPO's probably do run McAfee etc. because as a rule it is provided at no additional cost with a Notebook purchase - usually all that is required is a few dollars a year for updates (or they do uninstall and reinstall something else like Avast AV available at 50% discount to NPO's). Either way the comparison wasn't valid - eg: through TS Stock, a single user license NAV for a MAC is $20.00 - a single user license NAV for Windows is $15.00... The PC version is again cheaper...

IMO we do need to be sure the numbers we quote here are appropriate for any NPO's reading this thread - and sorry my comparison of AVG wasn't valid.

Cheers, Don

DonC wrote:

...by your own account (in your first post) you state the price difference between a base Macbook Pro and a comparable Dell notebook is $411.00 ($2,799 - $2,388)

No, I never said it was comparable. I said my effort was to make the specs match closely. My goal was to make it comparable, but that was not possible, because the faster processor is not available on the Dell, nor is the better video card, plus the Dell does not have state-of-the-art ethernet available, no built-in video cam or microphone, no remote included (for presentations), analog vs. digital audio in, a less sophisticated keyboard, and doesn't have the forward-thinking magnetic power adapter (but I am sure most laptops will next year).
There were also one or one things the Dell had: a built in card-reader, and a lightweight plastic housing vs. the MBP's annoying aluminum. Another reason they are not comparable is that the Dell is 60% thicker and 25% heavier as configured (8.5 lbs).

...this discounts that you also added $149 for XPO Pro

Media Center 2005 is not intended for business use: "PCs running Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 are designed specifically for home use. Windows XP Professional features, specifically Domain Join and Cached Credentials (Credentials Manager for logons) are not included. As a result, you will be prompted for your logon user name and password to access network resources after you reboot or log back on to the PC. In addition, file shares or network resources that are set to require a domain-joined PC for access will not be available."Source: MS MCE FAQ
At the time I wrote that post, I did not know about TechSoup's Stock offerings to NPOs. Keep in mind, though, that buying XP here still entails installing XP Pro over XP MCE, and many NPOs would have to hire help to do that.

as well as costing in other software that really is only appliceable from a personal perspective and the prices are not current for NPO's on this forum (TS members).

Other than XP Pro, the only software I figured in the total was software to create DVDs. The fact that a manufacturer would build in a DVD burner without the software to run it is ridiculous (and clearly meant to make the base price seem lower).
Burning slideshow presentations and video presentations to DVD is something very useful to NPOs, such as for fundraising to cover the cost of expensive laptops ;)

Far from being ridiculous, a price difference of > $500 is in fact supported by your own figures.

Not so sure about that. Where?

I know Mac users tend to love and sometimes be evangelistic about their machines and software - - and this can make valid comparison difficult...

I'll accept that if you'd accept that PC users tend to be simplistic about price and naive about total cost of ownership, making valid comparisons difficult ;) (and BTW, I am also a PC user.)

...but we should accept how the numbers add up... and... it's not a criticism noting that Mac's are more expensive...

Not when the comparison is reasonable, and--in my experience-- not in the long run if you factor your troubleshooting/malware scanning/registry repairing time and trouble.

Just as a PS... for my part I would never buy a Dell notebook. Toshy's or HP for me because IMO they are not only better built

Agreed

...but also have better support and are available at better prices.

Ooh! Let's do a comparison! ;)

through TS Stock, a single user license NAV for a MAC is $20.00 - a single user license NAV for Windows is $15.00... The PC version is again cheaper...

And the Mac version is utter useless cr*p. I think Cnet summed it up best in a review: The bottom line: Norton AntiVirus for Macintosh stops Mac users from unwittingly spreading PC viruses. Gmail/Yahoo! Mail/Hotmail and other mail portals can do that more effectively now.
A side note: I recently found the stupid WM97/Ethan virus attached to a Word document that had been opened from an old archive. The document was opened on a Mac using Word from MS Office 2004, and of course it had no detrimental effect on the Mac, except that it modified the normal.dot file, so any new Word documents created on the Mac carried the virus. Does it strike anyone else as grossly irresponsible on Microsoft's part that a version of Word which came out five years after the Ethan macro virus appeared would not recognize the simple macro virus and deny it access or delete it? Five years is conservative, because this Mac had the latest Office 2004 security updates installed, too, so it was really a 2006 version, seven years post Ethan. Anyway, I digress...

Have a nice weekend-- T

LOL - OK - As I think I suggested earlier, a lot of evangelism comes into any discussion concerning Mac's just as it does BMW's or VW's on an auto forum - :-) Some people prefer to drive BM's (and are happy to pay the extra price), some people prefer a more practical and economical driving solution - yes Mac's have some extra "features"... and yes, if you want these "features" (or even consider them to be features depending on identified needs), then you must pay extra for them. Conversely I think that msot people experienced in purchasing bulk quantities of notebooks would agree that Mac have much poorer support than other major notebook manufactuers. What's worth more... an inbuilt webcam, or an ability to get your notebook repaired/replaced overnight when something goes wrong?

Eg: I'm quite sure that most organizational puchasing officers tasked with purchasing notebooks for field staff would care a lot more about warranty, service options and the availability of local qualified service technicians than they do about gigabit ethernet, supposedly 'better' video cards (better than what?) or inbuilt webcams... these might be "nice-to-have", but unless they fit within the stated business needs assessment they are probably just a waste of money.

I guess I'm just a little surprised that anyone would argue about this... as always it is, and should be, a matter of choice meeting identified business need - not an argument of which has the glitzier toys attached to it... We should all purchase that which best fits our identified needs.

Cheers, Don

donc wrote:

guess I'm just a little surprised that anyone would argue about this... as always it is, and should be, a matter of choice meeting identified business need - not an argument of which has the glitzier toys attached to it...

I guess I am a little surprised I still haven't made my point. So let me try one more time.
I responding to the comment: "If I want a nice 17" Notebook to replace my office desktop a dell will run me about $1000.  The Mac is going to be $2800." I tried to show that a $1000 Dell is not at all comparable to a MacBook Pro. And there were a few points to be made here:
1) a $1000 Dell notebook (E1705) is mostly likely not suitable to be replacement for an office-class desktop. It has its wings clipped on several fronts, you'd really be missing your desktop, unless, of course, you paid for a lot of options to upgrade the E1705, but then it wouldn't be $1000 anymore.

2) The writer could have written this: "... a base Dell Inspiron E1705 will run me $1,000, a Dell XPS M1710 starts at $2,299." In that case, it would be obvious that there is something substantially different between the two Dell 17" notebook models-- it was not a valid comparison.

3) I was not attempting to say that a 17" MacBook Pro is the right choice for everyone. As you (Don) wrote: "IMO we do need to be sure the numbers we quote here are appropriate for any NPO's reading this thread." And that's all I was intending to do-- inform those reading the thread that what they should come away with is NOT that notebooks with such disparate prices are at all comparable. It's a very common thing I see, that people somehow think the cheapest computer is the best one for them, because it's the best "deal," though they would never think that when purchasing a car or a house - in those cases, differences in prices seem to spur on the curiosity to find out what they're getting for the money, (or more often, missing out on for the deal).

4) You may see me as a Mac evangelist, perhaps a looney, but it is not the case. I use Windows all the time. I manage Windows networks, and I see what crap corporate buyers get for their money when they think they're getting a deal. More than a Mac evangelist, I try to get the point across that if they're buying a computer to use for 3-4-5 years, that adds up to a lot of hours of use. Paying for higher quality, more memory, and faster parts up front is *usually* more cost effective, especially in the case of notebook computers which are lugged everywhere and used 10-15 hours a day.

Ok, that's all I have. I am going to close my series of tirades with an answer to the original question, "I'd be interested in knowing what others like/dislike about Macs, particularly from those involved in nonprofit environments."

I like the fact that the Macs are easy to use, easy to train others to use, virus- and spyware-free (now, maybe not forever), and historically very reliable. Since I serve in a volunteer capacity for all the non-profits I am involved with, I really like the fact that I get fewer calls for computer help from the ones which use Macs.

Your mileage may vary.

All I can say is that I have used Mac's in our non-profit for the last few years. I've also had to use PC's. Bottom line: Mac's outperform PC's by a wide margin. The new Intel processors have virtually erased any advantage the PC has ever had. Anyone who has ever used both will know for themselves why the Mac is superior. As for reliability, having owned many over the years, service is seldom required, and when it is, it has never been a problem as described above. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! Lono